DM-HTM-Whack_A_Mole

[HTM|Minion]

I didn't mean to disrespect beta 15 Bob, its a great map too. Yes, the point was to have two versions so those who liked beta 10 can play that if they want. I personally like the cross arena jump pads as do others, this is why I think 2 versions is the answer here. You haven't "overdone" the map, it just hit a sweet spot at beta 10 for some in it's evolution.

I'll take fast action all day, after playing Quake 3 back in the day our first UT server ran at 125%. I may be old Bob, but.... I forgot what I was going to say.

[HTM~FooFoo(Ack!)]

agree with ya Min...this is one of those that can be played ass-fast (15) or semi-paced(10) so both would be good to have access too

[HTM~BullyBob]

I didn't mean to disrespect beta 15 Bob, its a great map too. Yes, the point was to have two versions so those who liked beta 10 can play that if they want. I personally like the cross arena jump pads as do others, this is why I think 2 versions is the answer here. You haven't "overdone" the map, it just hit a sweet spot at beta 10 for some in it's evolution.

I'll take fast action all day, after playing Quake 3 back in the day our first UT server ran at 125%. I may be old Bob, but.... I forgot what I was going to say.

No disrespect taken but there are a lot of little fixes between the two betas. I do not want to go back to beta 10 and do all the fixes even if I found them all all over again. Fixes you wouldn't notice. I can easily remove the Upper Alcove Teleporters, and the new NSEW JumpPads from beta 16 and it would almost be like beta 10. That would leave the Enlarged Upper Alcoves. I would suggest keeping them. Then you would benefit from them and the larger corner JP tubes and a whole lot of re-aligned blocking volumes that line all the tubes, plus all the other fixes that I did. The only difference between 10 and 16 you would notice would be that the Upper Alcoves would be larger and the corner JP tubes are larger.

Waaaaaaa! Waaaaaa! I can't find the secret entrance cause I keep getting shot. Waaaaaa! Pathetic. When you spawn in (if that is in one of the 4 lower alcoves with the Lift) run over the lift to activate it but don't ride it up. If there's a hole below where the lift was then jump in. You have to be quick the elevator is coming.

[HTM~BullyBob]

agree with ya Min...this is one of those that can be played ass-fast (15) or semi-paced(10) so both would be good to have access too

You guys are killing me.

Foo, I think you've had your mouse in your hand more than your....I'll just let it rest there.

[HTM|Minion]

Bob... I guess I didn't explain the keeping of beta 10 well enough. We don't want any changes made to it, just to keep the current beta 10 and have it renamed WAM-Classic.

Please don't remove anything from beta 16, we enjoy that map too, but the two maps play differently and that is the point of having both.

[HTM~BullyBob]

Bob... I guess I didn't explain the keeping of beta 10 well enough. We don't want any changes made to it, just to keep the current beta 10 and have it renamed WAM-Classic.

Please don't remove anything from beta 16, we enjoy that map too, but the two maps play differently and that is the point of having both.

Minion I'm sorry but i won't finalize a map that i know has a lot of fixes to be made. I never had beta 10 in a final stage. I knew there were things that I purposely leave until I get to the last stages of map construction. Things like misaligned textures, Players getting stuck in jump tubes, blocking volumes for the Jump tubes are misaligned on some and need to be fixed or Players will hang there also, Lighting needs to be addressed although I could live with it I suppose, BSP misalignments which can cause BSP errors (There are at least 3 of them that I know), Fine tuning all the Bot pathing because I make DM maps and not TAM maps. You have to think about more than the TAM view, fine tuning all the actors like weapons pickups, ammo pickups, things not thought about in TAM. I wanted to release this map to the public but I won't make a half finished map and put it out there. But here's what I'll do. Just leave the WAM-beta10 map and name as is because its not complete, and I'll continue with the current beta 16 as is also.

On second thought I can just leave b10 exactly like it is, problems and all, except change the name a little and leave the beta designation...cause it's still in beta. This version is for HTM servers only.

Maybe name it WAM-Classic-betaXX or something.

I'll have to postpone the final for both maps till I fix some of the 'invisible' problems in b10 and the additional JP to the alcove for b16 if I do it. (This is a good example. I intentionally designed this map so that Players would ONLY spawn in in one of the 4 sub alcoves. There are no weapons there so one would have to take the Lift to get one or the JP and then go to the center holes to get any. I did this on purpose to force you to use all of the map. If I put a JP to alcove then there won't be any reason to ever go down below. That's why I removed them from early on. I will have defeated all my planning which was working like clockwork. But then there's TAM which basically bastardizes my plans anyway. No need for weapons/ammo/Health/Powerups, etc., pickups. You don't always spawn where the mapper intended. Sometimes I hate TAM. Please remember I make only DM maps. I only made the GOT-TAM map because I wanted to test a theory of mine). If you know me Minion then you know I am not pissed but you guys have PLEASE got to communicate with me way before beta 16 about any wishes, changes alterations, spinoffs, etc. Don't get me started on real beta testing and not just playing.

Tell me what you think.

Time for goat weed...oh, I'm holding a fatty now. LOL.

[HTM~FooFoo(Ack!)]

Bob, we really only play TAM and sometimes, Arena Master mod so not sure you need to focus on spawn to weapon placement. One thing I've noticed in some other maps that have been migrated to TAM is that they have kept the DM?TDM style spawn concept (spawning close enough to pick ups) but that puts a single player sometimes right smack in the middle of 4 or 5 enemy players...almost no chance of even getting to safety. When I played Bombing Run, each team would spawn either in a bunch together and could set out in mass or own direction...or they would at least spawn at complete opposites. I did notice that in WAM, when we all spawned in one of the rooms below, assholes like Destined (shocker!!!!) would jump as fast as he could up and out and spam the opening or the alcove....the only two way to get out...killing anyone who tried to get out. So it becomes more a race to get out and spam the other guys hole first. Just food for though. Don't take any of this as a dig at you brother...love everything you do for us!

[Born]

On second thought I can just leave b10 exactly like it is, problems and all, except change the name a little and leave the beta designation...cause it's still in beta. This version is for HTM servers only.

Maybe name it WAM-Classic-betaXX or something.

Hi Bob,

First and foremost - You make REALLY great maps - Thanks!

I think the WAM "classic" concept is no different than the many versions of UNDER that are out there... There are times when you want the more original basic UNDER, other times when an expanded/different version (2009, others) is fun. Having two versions is not about "one's better" it about more choices based who's playing and the number of players... I mean, basically this meas you hit a DOUBLE, two maps in one... like "WAM-classic" and "WAM-extreme"

You did the same thing with Garden of Stone... Should we only keep one version of Garden of Stone? We now have 3-4 and they all get played...

Does that help to explain?

[HTM~BullyBob]

Re: Foo/Born

I fully agree with most of what you say but not all. I try in most of my maps to have an abundance of weapons and pickups at hand. I hate spawning in and having to hunt for a more powerful weapon. How to make DM a little like TAM is to do just that. Lots of weapons and ammo and powerups. The WAM map is different. It was supposed to be only a 1vs1 or 2vs2 map but now its an 8vs 8 map. (I even removed the 1vs1 designation).There are enough player starts in the lower alcoves to cover this. The flow works well. You have two ways to go when spawning in. You don't have to jump out and be spammed. Take the Lift. I also believe that its wrong to make a map that is 100% geared towards making the Players life nice and easy. Part of the game is overcoming the structure of the map as well as beating other Players. BTW-The GoS maps were not released to the public. I had planned to release the WAM map as such.

I will do what u guys want most of the time but just remember it takes more time and for me more work. I am in the Editor or Game at least/most 16 to 20 hours per week M-F and about that much on Sa-Su. Just depends. (Football has eaten into that though).

I am going to release the WAM-Classic-betaXX this Friday. (This map is unfinished and will keep the beta tag. Would you like to go back and finalize the MF beta 6 map? It was one sweet map then. But it wasn't finished.)

I am going to release the WAM final this Friday also.

And I'll say this: You guys just don't get it. You look through the lenses of TAM. I make DM maps for generic Players and my maps are going to support that.

Show me a map that was made specifically for TAM and DM. I want to see what the magic is.

In some cases I'm asked to sacrifice my work and craftsmanship for the sake of convienience. That hurts. I would like to stick to a set of standards with my maps.

A lot of this could be avoided if there were a regular stream of feedback on any of my betas in play. I don't say I don't get any, Foo, Minion, Born, etc., but obviously not enough. We're at WAM beta 16 now and I'm just now hearing that I should have stopped at beta 10. Which would have been perfectly ok with me. The WAM map was originally supposed to be simple. But solid. Emphasis on solid. Solid meaning the things that aren't usually seen by Players.

I'm done. I gotta have coffee.

BTW- Think about this for a minute. Only 3 Players want me to make these changes. Haven't heard from anyone else. Should I build my maps guided by only 3 opinions...I love u guys and I do cherish your opinions else I wouldn't be doing it. Period.

Extra: Try this in GoS, no matter the version, ghost high to the top center of the map and look down. You should be able to just see the entire map. Now watch a TAM game and pay attention to where the Players spawn in. Do the same in a TDM game and see the difference. TAM does not have to use the PlayerStarts but DM, TDM does. It makes a difference where mappers place their "goodies" for pickup in DM, TDM but TAM negates this effort.


By the by, I am not a good map maker, I suck big time.

[HTM~FooFoo(Ack!)]

Bob, nobody is questioning why you do things or how you do them. You have asked for genuine input numerous times so don't get upset when we do what you ask. I was happy with whatever map you made for me and only gave extra input when you asked for it. I realize there are no actual TAM maps...I helped create the original game type along with Mike and Lenny when I was with A!M. I was only suggesting that it might be easier for you in the long run to not focus on the pick ups, as we never play DM/TDM here and since you were making these maps for our clan only. I honestly am just glad and grateful that you have made anything for us. Certainly not complaining about how you go about that...just thought we were being helpful by giving feedback as relates to how we play. As for your map making skill...gotta be honest here. The MadFapping map is vnot only one of the more visually appealing maps I've played in 18 years of this game, it also plays as well as any map I've played. Don't knock yourself man...your maps rock.

[HTM|Minion]

Bob, I never meant to offend you or make you think you should have stopped at Beta 10. Please accept my apology if I did so.

We can just as easily forget about the idea and stay with the more refined version. As for the number of people responding in this thread, I can't answer that one. I see members on the forum but I guess they do whatever they do and don't comment on the beta maps for whatever reason.

You are very skilled at map creation man, I can't even imagine the tedious work that goes into creating and refining maps like yours.

[HTM~BullyBob]

Wait a minute here. I have never said I didn't want to make a new version nor would I ever say that. I spin off map versions all the time. But you are asking me to finalize a beta that has not been brought to a point of finalization.

Maybe the conversion should have gone something like this...

"Bob. We really like the new additions to beta 15. Keep up the good work. By the way, I was talking to some of the other Players and they really like the beta 10 retro version. Its just a simple clean, uncluttered version. Is there any chance you could spin off beta 10 into a "Classic" version also?"

(Bob) "No problem. Just let me finish the original map first then I'll spin off an earlier version."

Foo, I can't forget about pickups and such just because you play TAM. I have a standard that I stick to. To make maps that are as complete as the original Epic maps. Not as well constructed but complete by supporting ALL pertinent gametypes and that means Bot pathing and all those pesky pickups, etc. I HAVE to do this. And yes you have helped me along the way Foo as well as others. I wasn't saying that.

I AM NOT PISSED OFF. I repeat. I AM NOT PISSED OFF.

You guys are completely ruining my sex life...oh, that's right I don't have a sex life...and I would have know this if I weren't so loaded right now. Soon I'll be talking to myself.

All I can say my fellow members whom I have such love and respect for is to help me finish the main WAM map. Meanwhile...P_A_T_I_E_N_C_E... is the word. Keep using the b10 version you have now and wait for a couple more weeks.

I would ask some questions now but I never get a direct answer from any of you. Well almost never. Here's an example:

(Bob) "Hey Foo. Did you get the bread toasted on both sides?"

(Foo) "%#!?# Mother fuckin bread ties. I never turn them the right fucking way, damn it."

And that's usually it. And I'm not just picking on Foo here.

This Friday night...WAM beta 16+...test it well...next Friday WAM final plus other stuff.

Nuff said.

Be patient.

FYI: The main reason I don't like TAM so much is NO SNIPER RIFLE. WTF man! (at least there didn't use to be)

[Born]

Anybody else in this thread feel like they need to cancel plans to attend any crowded outdoor events overlooked by a tall hotel...?

CNN Breaking News: Distressed UT mapper kills hundreds shouting "Whack this you stupid fks! and NO, I'm *NOT* going to do more fixes on an old version!..."

[HTM~BullyBob]

Anybody else in this thread feel like they need to cancel plans to attend any crowded outdoor events overlooked by a tall hotel...?

CNN Breaking News: Distressed UT mapper kills hundreds shouting "Whack this you stupid fks! and NO, I'm *NOT* going to do more fixes on an old version!..."

LMAO. Too late Born I just finished the "Classic" spin-off. Be ready Friday...or I guess its ready now just not posted. So is the b17 WAM. And probably the Min beta too? I haven't gotten around to spinning off a gay WAM version for you Born. I kinda don't know where to start. You'll have to hold my hand on this one. Hehe.

~BirthdaySuitBob

[HTM~BullyBob]

DM-HTM-Whack_A_Mole

I added the extra JP to Alcove and remembered that I had tried that before but I tried again anyway. Sorry but I cannot add JumpPad's to Alcoves completely across the court. I don't have enough ceiling height to achieve the jump and you would end up smashing into the walls and losing health.

So I did the next best thing and made the JP jump straight back to the Alcoves. It can still be tricky. JP's have a sweet spot. Hit em head on and jump up straight. Hit em at an angle and your jump will be biased in that direction. The new ones are colored red. You can now use the across court JP and then on the red JP and then jump to the Alcove.

I have nothing left to do on this map so without any problems it should be a final map next Friday.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
DM-HTM-WAM-Classic

Try this one out and let me know if there is ANYTHING at all that needs to be fixed to make it the Classic map you know and I will fix it.

~Bob